From nevdeb at bigpond.com Mon Feb 3 00:35:53 2003 From: nevdeb at bigpond.com (Neville) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 10:35:53 +1100 Subject: [Freegis-list] (no subject) Message-ID: Hello Is it possible to convert or use mapinfo maps in Garmins mapsource (.mps) to load onto a Garmin GPS. Neville -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.intevation.de/pipermail/freegis-list/attachments/20030203/3c5da92c/attachment.html From cjr03 at uow.edu.au Mon Feb 3 02:42:02 2003 From: cjr03 at uow.edu.au (Chris Ryan) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 12:42:02 +1100 Subject: [Freegis-list] GIS Hydrology Software Message-ID: <000001c2cb25$74c39b40$9603a8c0@chrisryanlaptop> Hi, I thought some people on this list may be interested in some free software that I have been developing. It is a standalone GIS package tailored towards hydrologic applications. Briefly, CatchmentSIM is based on a raster DEM which can be imported, or interpolated from contours and streams. The model delineates watersheds and calculates hydrologic parameters using more accurate (vector based) algorithms than the traditional D8 method. Analysis tools include vector stream network generation and analysis with Strahler / Horton stream ordering, bifurcation charting etc. The software also includes a macro language that allows customised export for tight coupling with other models. For example, a user can setup the model to automatically create input files for other software. More information, software downloads and a quick tutorial can be found at www.uow.edu.au/~cjr03 Regards, Chris Ryan From shaileshganatra at rediffmail.com Tue Feb 4 11:14:10 2003 From: shaileshganatra at rediffmail.com (Shailesh Ganatra) Date: 4 Feb 2003 10:14:10 -0000 Subject: [Freegis-list] Query : Problem with .shp point coordinates Message-ID: <20030204101410.19228.qmail@webmail16.rediffmail.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://www.intevation.de/pipermail/freegis-list/attachments/20030204/f149159f/attachment.txt From schulung at mapmedia.de Mon Feb 3 14:37:09 2003 From: schulung at mapmedia.de (schulung@mapmedia.de) Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 14:37:09 +0100 Subject: [Freegis-list] UMN MapServer training courses Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030203142507.00ad5fb0@pop.web.de> Dear list, we would like to inform all of you about our '03 UMN MapServer training courses. Just as last year, MapMedia (Berlin) is offering UMN MapServer training courses. The now modularized course structure gives every participant the possibility to create a course programme that fits their needs most. In the beginners course, participants learn how to create their own MapServer applications. The advanced course goes beyond that, covering topics like programming with PHP MapScript and integrating spatial databases with PostGIS, thus enabling the participants to use the full power of MapServer's possibilities. Every course module lasts for 2 days. The modules were designed to be taken independently from each other, but also fit seamlessly together as one, big course. The courses will be held in german. You will find more information (schedule and pricing) at www.mapmedia.de. In case of further questions don't hesitate to contact us. Regards C. J. Keuck _________________________________________________ MapMedia Kartographie und raumbezogene Informationssysteme Heilbronner Stra?e 10 D-10711 Berlin Charlottenburg fon: +49.(0)30.89 06 82 70 fax: +49.(0)30.89 06 82 73 mail: schulung at mapmedia.de net: www.mapmedia.de _________________________________________________ From jan at intevation.de Wed Feb 5 18:09:08 2003 From: jan at intevation.de (Jan-Oliver Wagner) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 18:09:08 +0100 Subject: [Freegis-list] GIS Hydrology Software In-Reply-To: <000001c2cb25$74c39b40$9603a8c0@chrisryanlaptop> References: <000001c2cb25$74c39b40$9603a8c0@chrisryanlaptop> Message-ID: <20030205170908.GB16042@intevation.de> Hi, such tools would belong to FreeGIS thematically. Unfortunately this specific software is not Free Software. At least it wasn't possible to find any evidence for this. Jan On Mon, Feb 03, 2003 at 12:42:02PM +1100, Chris Ryan wrote: > I thought some people on this list may be interested in some free > software that I have been developing. It is a standalone GIS package > tailored towards hydrologic applications. > > Briefly, CatchmentSIM is based on a raster DEM which can be imported, or > interpolated from contours and streams. The model delineates watersheds > and calculates hydrologic parameters using more accurate (vector based) > algorithms than the traditional D8 method. > > Analysis tools include vector stream network generation and analysis > with Strahler / Horton stream ordering, bifurcation charting etc. The > software also includes a macro language that allows customised export > for tight coupling with other models. For example, a user can setup the > model to automatically create input files for other software. > > More information, software downloads and a quick tutorial can be found > at www.uow.edu.au/~cjr03 -- Jan-Oliver Wagner http://intevation.de/~jan/ Intevation GmbH http://intevation.de/ FreeGIS http://freegis.org/ From Matt.Wilkie at gov.yk.ca Thu Feb 6 23:29:10 2003 From: Matt.Wilkie at gov.yk.ca (Matt.Wilkie) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 14:29:10 -0800 Subject: [Freegis-list] GIS Hydrology Software Message-ID: <6DD7370C9452D31192A10008C75D075315EB2EEE@RAPTOR> > Unfortunately this specific software is not Free Software. > At least it wasn't possible to find any evidence for this. It is not Libre Software:
"Other than the rights expressly granted to you hereunder, no other right is granted to you. Most importantly, without limitation, you may not: a) modify or create any derivative works of the software or documentation; b) decompile, disassemble, reverse engineer, or otherwise attempt to derive the source code for the software."
...copied from the license agreement which shows up when running the windows installer. -- Matt Wilkie -------------------------------------------- Geographic Information, Information Management and Technology, Yukon Department of Environment 91780 Alaska Hwy * Whitehorse, Yukon * Y1A 5X7 867-667-8133 Tel * 867-393-7003 Fax -------------------------------------------- From cjr03 at uow.edu.au Fri Feb 7 02:15:36 2003 From: cjr03 at uow.edu.au (Chris Ryan) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 12:15:36 +1100 Subject: [Freegis-list] GIS Hydrology Software In-Reply-To: <6DD7370C9452D31192A10008C75D075315EB2EEE@RAPTOR> Message-ID: <000001c2ce46$6d2b9300$05c08282@chrisryanlaptop> I should clarify this. I apologise for not being up-to-date on the terminology or definition of Free as it applies to this mailing list. CatchmentSIM is free (no cost) to use and is standalone (not an ArcGIS add-on etc). However, source code is not supplied. Sorry for the confusion. Regards, Chris Ryan -----Original Message----- From: freegis-list-admin at intevation.de [mailto:freegis-list-admin at intevation.de] On Behalf Of Matt.Wilkie Sent: Friday, 7 February 2003 9:29 AM To: freegis-list at intevation.de Subject: Re: [Freegis-list] GIS Hydrology Software > Unfortunately this specific software is not Free Software. > At least it wasn't possible to find any evidence for this. It is not Libre Software:
"Other than the rights expressly granted to you hereunder, no other right is granted to you. Most importantly, without limitation, you may not: a) modify or create any derivative works of the software or documentation; b) decompile, disassemble, reverse engineer, or otherwise attempt to derive the source code for the software."
...copied from the license agreement which shows up when running the windows installer. -- Matt Wilkie -------------------------------------------- Geographic Information, Information Management and Technology, Yukon Department of Environment 91780 Alaska Hwy * Whitehorse, Yukon * Y1A 5X7 867-667-8133 Tel * 867-393-7003 Fax -------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Freegis-list mailing list Freegis-list at intevation.de https://intevation.de/mailman/listinfo/freegis-list From listmail at karmanaut.com Fri Feb 7 07:51:04 2003 From: listmail at karmanaut.com (Viveka) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 17:51:04 +1100 Subject: [Freegis-list] GIS Hydrology Software In-Reply-To: <000001c2ce46$6d2b9300$05c08282@chrisryanlaptop> References: <000001c2ce46$6d2b9300$05c08282@chrisryanlaptop> Message-ID: At 12:15 PM +1100 7/2/03, Chris Ryan wrote: >I should clarify this. I apologise for not being up-to-date on the >terminology or definition of Free as it applies to this mailing list. > >CatchmentSIM is free (no cost) to use and is standalone (not an ArcGIS >add-on etc). However, source code is not supplied. Sorry for the >confusion. Hi Chris, of course, you have every right to license your software on any terms you wish, and it's up to you whether you wish to release source code. However, I wonder if you have considered the benefits, not only to others but also to you and your project, of releasing source code in such as way as to fall under the Free Software Definition? Here are the freedoms that make up the definition, from the website of the Free Software Foundation: http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/free-sw.html * The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0). * The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this. * The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2). * The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits. (freedom 3). Access to the source code is a precondition for this. I won't lecture you on the benefits, as you may know them already and if you don't there's plenty of material on the FSF website. If you'd like more info on how making your software Free (as in speech) as well as (or instead of) free (as in beer) could benefit your project, please ask me, or the list. I assume that this is on-topic for the list, as long as it doesn't devolve into a flamewar. Regards, V. -- Viveka Weiley, Karmanaut. { http://www.karmanaut.com | http://www.planet-earth.org http://www.MacWeb3D.org | http://sydney.siggraph.org.au } Hypermedia, virtual worlds, human interface, truth, beauty. From jan at intevation.de Fri Feb 7 09:39:30 2003 From: jan at intevation.de (Jan-Oliver Wagner) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 09:39:30 +0100 Subject: [Freegis-list] GIS Hydrology Software In-Reply-To: References: <000001c2ce46$6d2b9300$05c08282@chrisryanlaptop> Message-ID: <20030207083930.GA28547@intevation.de> On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 05:51:04PM +1100, Viveka wrote: >... > well as (or instead of) free (as in beer) could benefit your project, > please ask me, or the list. I assume that this is on-topic for the > list, as long as it doesn't devolve into a flamewar. indeed such discussion is on-topic. I hope that this list could maintain a serious discussion on this. At least, in the recent years this was the case. GIS people seem to be reasonable and avoid flamewars :-) -- Jan-Oliver Wagner http://intevation.de/~jan/ Intevation GmbH http://intevation.de/ FreeGIS http://freegis.org/ From jan at intevation.de Fri Feb 7 15:10:03 2003 From: jan at intevation.de (Jan-Oliver Wagner) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 15:10:03 +0100 Subject: [Freegis-list] Re: GIS grant to help map cities worldwide In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030207142609.0271f098@pop.skynet.be> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030207142609.0271f098@pop.skynet.be> Message-ID: <20030207141003.GA20134@intevation.de> [ crossposing FreeGIS and EGIP Mailing List ] This is actually yet another action to make the third world be dependent on the first world technologies. The best way to help developing countries getting into a better position is to establish independent technolgies for their matters. Free Software is the best available answer for the IT sector. Thus, real support for developing countries in order to gain mid- and long-term improvement of their situation means to educate them in using Free Software, here Free GIS Software. The current tools might need to be adapted which certainly will consume some time and money, but nonetheless I don't regard it a good idea to sacrifice the mid- and long-term advantages for a quick solution. On Fri, Feb 07, 2003 at 02:29:43PM +0100, Roger Longhorn wrote: > The United Nations has been given $15m to help it tackle poverty and the > spread of cities. > > The grant will provide geographic information systems software to urban > planners, and train them in its use. > > The money is to be shared among 1,000 cities in the developing world and > comes from the Environmental Systems Research Institute (Esri), a US > company. >... -- Jan-Oliver Wagner http://intevation.de/~jan/ Intevation GmbH http://intevation.de/ FreeGIS http://freegis.org/ From jan at intevation.de Sat Feb 8 18:25:14 2003 From: jan at intevation.de (Jan-Oliver Wagner) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 18:25:14 +0100 Subject: [Freegis-list] Re: GIS grant to help map cities worldwide In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030208124542.00b963d0@pop.skynet.be> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030207142609.0271f098@pop.skynet.be> <5.2.0.9.2.20030207142609.0271f098@pop.skynet.be> <5.2.0.9.2.20030208124542.00b963d0@pop.skynet.be> Message-ID: <20030208172514.GA5794@intevation.de> [ again crossposting EGIP and FreeGIS ] On Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 04:50:38PM +0100, Roger Longhorn wrote: > Even "free" software has a cost. Absolutely correct. And it should never be seen in another way. Free Software is about Freedom, not costs. Free Software is definitely assotiated with costs (as is any IT activity). But you have the freedom to choose the type and timing for the costs. > While Jan has a point, free (open source) software is not always the > answer. Its use depends upon the application and the skill level (both in > IT and in the application sector) of the user, plus the level of complexity > in spatial analysis that is actually needed by the user. You are right that costs are associated with the tasks to perform. They usually are not with the license fees. But Free Software _is_ the answer here because you have the freedom to take advantage of your skill level or pay otherwise. With proprietary product you only have the latter option. > While completing some IPR-related "spatial information and tools" (read GIS > software) research for CGIAR - the Consultative Group for International > Agricultural Research - in which we specifically looked at open source GIS > and related spatial information management tools, we found that most of the > CGIAR's 16 international institutes relied on commercial GIS packages > because of the level of support available, at various levels. Note that commercial is not the opposite of Free Software. Both, proprietary software and Free Software can either be commercial or gratis. Professional support for Free Software (and yes for GIS too) is available. You just have to pay for it. You get the same gurantees as for proprietary products (software is always just technology), but usually a far better service (because you are not bound to a specific vendor, the contracted service company does the best possible service for you to keep you as a client). > The support they needed ranged from advising on hardware and operating > system software, to actual implementation of the software, use of the > software with the specific application(s), then on-going support and > software upgrades. The problems faced in the spatial info world are > legendary, as we have vastly differing sources of spatial data, different > formats, different scales, different applications and goals/objectives in > using the GIS tools. Complicating this are the requirement for many > research institutes to share, integrate and use their spatial data on a > global basis with sister organisations and/or other nationally-based > research institutes. All arguments to prefer Free Software over proprietary. > While OGC's excellent work on interoperability is going a long way to > assisting in this latter respect for commercially available GIS software, I > am not informed as to the degree to which the open source GIS community is > taking the new OGC Web-related specifications on-board. Note first that OGC derived from the former GRASS committee :-) Second, yes Free Software adopts standards. Usually faster and better than others if the standards are sensible. Look at Deegree, MapServer, PostGIS for OGC standards if you like. > Just to make clear that I am totally in favour of *appropriate* open source > software, I acquired my new laptop a few months ago, which came with > Windows XP installed plus Microsoft Works, but not Microsoft Office, of > which I have a legal copy. However, my copy of Office 2000 (not 2002) > requires an initial load of the basic package, then loading of three sets > of (freely available) service pack upgrades - which takes about an hour! > Either that, or purchase an upgrade to Office 2002 for a couple of hundred > Euro - and then still have to install service pack upgrades. > > Instead, I bit the bullet, as we say, and installed a completely free copy > of Open Office 1.0 from the free CD-ROM on a computer magazine. It has been > running so well - and with such good Office compatibility - that I have had > no reason to load and update Office 2000 on my system, let alone upgrade to > Office 2002. You can buy fully supported Open Office implementations > (immediate on-line support) for as little as 70 - 80 Euro, with support > from such firms as IBM and Sun Microsystems. > > This was *not* the experience I had two years ago when trying to install > and use GRASS on my desktop system. I never got fully to grips with GRASS > and in the end reverted to copies of other "low-end" GIS software. The fact > that there are several versions (upgrades) of GRASS available did not help, > as one source of support might be quite good for one version but not for > later (or earlier!) versions. > > Fortunately, several of supposedly "low end" GIS suites (i.e. not ESRI, > Intergraph, Autodesk or MapInfo products) are now very powerful and for > many applications, especially "one off" applications, these fully supported > GIS packages are more than adequate, for very little cost. I merely hope you understand low-end as low-cost-to-get-the-software-onto-your-harddisk and not as low-quality. But again: Costs are assoiated with the task as such, not with use-licenses or the costs to just have a software running on you computer. Think of the total cost of operation. > More importantly, to my mind, is the *data* issues, not the GIS software > issue. The announcement states that the grants for software will help "to > collect and analyze data about basic infrastructure and the current status > of housing." The costs to do the data collection, whether in terms of > finances or human resources, will *far* outstrip the cost of the GIS > package that will be used at the end of the process. Once that data is > collected, will it be made freely (or cheaply) available to other users in > these same developing countries, to perhaps help analyze other problems? > Who will pay for the data maintenance and update, the quality control, etc.? Indeed the data are important. However, strong proprietary companies like Esri have the tendency to make the users data turn to proprietary formats difficult to migrate at a later stage. There is also the strong tendency to move the users into a proprietary working environment they can't leave except at very high costs (note, that it is the usual strategy of proprietary vendors to set the update costs just a little bit lower than the migration costs for the customer). Though data are important and it is nice to collect them, I am still convinced that we help the developing countries better if we first help them to build up technology know-how of their own. They will be far more efficient with the data collection later on. > Would it not be good if, each time an Intergraph or ESRI or Autodesk made > one of these grand gestures regarding their software, that they also > provided an equal level of grant-based support (both financial and > technical) in the data collection and dissemination tasks! No, the data are locked into a proprietary environment one way or another. This will be a disadvantage in the mid-term. > Without good quality spatial data - who needs GIS software? ;>) Who can collect high quality data without a GIS? -> The decision on the techology comes first. I am not saying that data collection has to be stopped now to first install Free Software. But the priorities for should be changed. > p.s. In any case, most developing nations have a simple solution to overly > priced software - they simply buy one copy only! "Software piracy in > Vietnam is estimated to be 97% for business software" > (http://www.ealaddin.com/hasp/) and estimates from the Federation Against > Software Theft (FAST - http://www.fast.org.uk/) for the amount of business > applications software that is pirated in developing nations ranges "from > 50% (typically) to over 95%"! This is just another argument to avoid proprietary software: As long as you are a poor country, illegal copies are tolerated. Once the country gets richer, you can collect as much money as you like. Also, it is possible to blackmail a country (think of a government using a proprietary oerpating system in all its authorities with only a few licenses - what position do they have for economic negotiations? China is a nice recent example, further will follow). There are many other arguments why developing countries should avoid proprietary software to fill a book or a conference... -- Jan-Oliver Wagner http://intevation.de/~jan/ Intevation GmbH http://intevation.de/ FreeGIS http://freegis.org/ From anselm at hook.org Sat Feb 8 18:37:16 2003 From: anselm at hook.org (Anselm Hook) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 10:37:16 -0700 (MST) Subject: [Freegis-list] Re: GIS grant to help map cities worldwide In-Reply-To: <20030208172514.GA5794@intevation.de> Message-ID: > Free Software is about Freedom, not costs. > Free Software is definitely assotiated with costs (as is any IT activity). > But you have the freedom to choose the type and timing for the costs. In your definition of free do you include the GPL licenses or do you mean the more liberal use licenses such as BSD? I just genuinely want a clarification - not trolling. I'd like to understand a definition of free I suppose. - a From jan at intevation.de Sat Feb 8 21:33:36 2003 From: jan at intevation.de (Jan-Oliver Wagner) Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 21:33:36 +0100 Subject: [Freegis-list] Re: GIS grant to help map cities worldwide In-Reply-To: References: <20030208172514.GA5794@intevation.de> Message-ID: <20030208203336.GA7086@intevation.de> On Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 10:37:16AM -0700, Anselm Hook wrote: > > Free Software is about Freedom, not costs. > > Free Software is definitely assotiated with costs (as is any IT activity). > > But you have the freedom to choose the type and timing for the costs. > > In your definition of free do you include the GPL licenses or do you mean > the more liberal use licenses such as BSD? > > I just genuinely want a clarification - not trolling. I'd like to > understand a definition of free I suppose. I mean Free Software as defined by the Free Software Foundation: http://www.fsfeurope.org/documents/freesoftware.en.html This includes the GNU General Public License, BSD license and many others. -- Jan-Oliver Wagner http://intevation.de/~jan/ Intevation GmbH http://intevation.de/ FreeGIS http://freegis.org/ From acuster at nature.berkeley.edu Sun Feb 9 23:09:42 2003 From: acuster at nature.berkeley.edu (Adrian Custer) Date: 09 Feb 2003 14:09:42 -0800 Subject: [Freegis-list] Re: GIS grant to help map cities worldwide In-Reply-To: <20030208172514.GA5794@intevation.de> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030207142609.0271f098@pop.skynet.be> <5.2.0.9.2.20030207142609.0271f098@pop.skynet.be> <5.2.0.9.2.20030208124542.00b963d0@pop.skynet.be> <20030208172514.GA5794@intevation.de> Message-ID: <1044828582.17066.170.camel@tsetse.lab-net> Hello Jan-Oliver, I'm a bit puzzled by the cross-post you sent to the FreeGIS list since it started in the midstream of the exchange. Here, is a quick take on the some issues in the use of GIS for spatial research in agricultural systems. It may be helpful to Mr. Roger Longhorn. These issues have no relevance to the financial costs of the software but rather pertain to the control of the tool. Could you please forward it to him if he is not on the freegis list? While there are many arguments in favour of *free* software, the ability to modify the source code is critical for any research using geographic information systems. If Mr. Longhorn and the CGIAR intend to use GIS for spatial research in agricultural systems, success will only come from the long term accumulation of useful tools, routines and data. Contrary to what the commercial vendors repeat, our understanding of spatial analysis is not nearly sufficient to be able to rely on pre-packaged algorithms for analysis. The major costs to the consortium will be involved in the time required of the research scientists to develop useful models, build a coherent set of baseline data and develop useful analytic algorithms. This investment will only be recouped by the consortium if, at the end of the process, it has a tool that it can then use in perpetuity. The difficulty in getting an estimate of the growth of cassava across Africa, for example, does not lie in mapping Africa but in getting a reliable set of weather estimates, a reasonable plant growth model and a decent estimate of the areas where cassava is grown. By all means, CGIAR should pay for software to help shorten their time to completion, but the consortium should buy *free* software and pay for consultants to help the consortium's scientists program the models, acquire data and understand the issues involved in spatial analysis. These consultants, and the product of their labour, is the key to the successful use by CGIAR of GIS for research. Even the best spatial ecologists don't understand the robustness problems involved in the manipulation of several data layers, ignore the issues of error propagation and misunderstand the applicability of the statistical tools in spatial analysis. Purchase advice and help, not licenses. The alternative will be a slew of projects, each having its analysis assembled piecemeal and no simplicity gained over the next few decades of work. On the other hand, if the CGIAR is using GIS to map current situations for funding proposals or to illustrate political statements, current proprietary software is probably sufficient, quick and easy. However, once again the product of the labour of the researchers of the consortium will only be partly available to the CGIAR. There will be no way, for example, to share with government agencies or university research groups around the world the analytic tools with which the CGIAR reached its conclusions. The best solution for the CGIAR would be to join the FAO and several other groups, allocate a source of funds over the next five years and pay someone to assemble one, or several complementary, systems to serve their needs. At the end of the process, the consortium would have a system that it owned, that it could modify and that was targeted to its particular needs. Good luck in whatever path you choose, adrian custer dept. of entology u.c. berkeley On Sat, 2003-02-08 at 09:25, Jan-Oliver Wagner wrote: > [ again crossposting EGIP and FreeGIS ] > > On Sat, Feb 08, 2003 at 04:50:38PM +0100, Roger Longhorn wrote: > > Even "free" software has a cost. > > Absolutely correct. And it should never be seen in another way. > > Free Software is about Freedom, not costs. > Free Software is definitely assotiated with costs (as is any IT activity). > But you have the freedom to choose the type and timing for the costs. > > > While Jan has a point, free (open source) software is not always the > > answer. Its use depends upon the application and the skill level (both in > > IT and in the application sector) of the user, plus the level of complexity > > in spatial analysis that is actually needed by the user. > > You are right that costs are associated with the tasks to perform. > They usually are not with the license fees. > But Free Software _is_ the answer here because you have the freedom > to take advantage of your skill level or pay otherwise. > With proprietary product you only have the latter option. > > > While completing some IPR-related "spatial information and tools" (read GIS > > software) research for CGIAR - the Consultative Group for International > > Agricultural Research - in which we specifically looked at open source GIS > > and related spatial information management tools, we found that most of the > > CGIAR's 16 international institutes relied on commercial GIS packages > > because of the level of support available, at various levels. > > Note that commercial is not the opposite of Free Software. > Both, proprietary software and Free Software can either be commercial > or gratis. > Professional support for Free Software (and yes for GIS too) is > available. You just have to pay for it. You get the same > gurantees as for proprietary products (software is always just technology), > but usually a far better service (because you are not bound to a > specific vendor, the contracted service company does the best possible > service for you to keep you as a client). > > > The support they needed ranged from advising on hardware and operating > > system software, to actual implementation of the software, use of the > > software with the specific application(s), then on-going support and > > software upgrades. The problems faced in the spatial info world are > > legendary, as we have vastly differing sources of spatial data, different > > formats, different scales, different applications and goals/objectives in > > using the GIS tools. Complicating this are the requirement for many > > research institutes to share, integrate and use their spatial data on a > > global basis with sister organisations and/or other nationally-based > > research institutes. > > All arguments to prefer Free Software over proprietary. > > > While OGC's excellent work on interoperability is going a long way to > > assisting in this latter respect for commercially available GIS software, I > > am not informed as to the degree to which the open source GIS community is > > taking the new OGC Web-related specifications on-board. > > Note first that OGC derived from the former GRASS committee :-) > Second, yes Free Software adopts standards. Usually faster > and better than others if the standards are sensible. Look > at Deegree, MapServer, PostGIS for OGC standards if you like. > > > Just to make clear that I am totally in favour of *appropriate* open source > > software, I acquired my new laptop a few months ago, which came with > > Windows XP installed plus Microsoft Works, but not Microsoft Office, of > > which I have a legal copy. However, my copy of Office 2000 (not 2002) > > requires an initial load of the basic package, then loading of three sets > > of (freely available) service pack upgrades - which takes about an hour! > > Either that, or purchase an upgrade to Office 2002 for a couple of hundred > > Euro - and then still have to install service pack upgrades. > > > > Instead, I bit the bullet, as we say, and installed a completely free copy > > of Open Office 1.0 from the free CD-ROM on a computer magazine. It has been > > running so well - and with such good Office compatibility - that I have had > > no reason to load and update Office 2000 on my system, let alone upgrade to > > Office 2002. You can buy fully supported Open Office implementations > > (immediate on-line support) for as little as 70 - 80 Euro, with support > > from such firms as IBM and Sun Microsystems. > > > > This was *not* the experience I had two years ago when trying to install > > and use GRASS on my desktop system. I never got fully to grips with GRASS > > and in the end reverted to copies of other "low-end" GIS software. The fact > > that there are several versions (upgrades) of GRASS available did not help, > > as one source of support might be quite good for one version but not for > > later (or earlier!) versions. > > > > Fortunately, several of supposedly "low end" GIS suites (i.e. not ESRI, > > Intergraph, Autodesk or MapInfo products) are now very powerful and for > > many applications, especially "one off" applications, these fully supported > > GIS packages are more than adequate, for very little cost. > > I merely hope you understand low-end as > low-cost-to-get-the-software-onto-your-harddisk and not as low-quality. > But again: Costs are assoiated with the task as such, not with use-licenses > or the costs to just have a software running on you computer. > Think of the total cost of operation. > > > More importantly, to my mind, is the *data* issues, not the GIS software > > issue. The announcement states that the grants for software will help "to > > collect and analyze data about basic infrastructure and the current status > > of housing." The costs to do the data collection, whether in terms of > > finances or human resources, will *far* outstrip the cost of the GIS > > package that will be used at the end of the process. Once that data is > > collected, will it be made freely (or cheaply) available to other users in > > these same developing countries, to perhaps help analyze other problems? > > Who will pay for the data maintenance and update, the quality control, etc.? > > Indeed the data are important. However, strong proprietary companies > like Esri have the tendency to make the users data turn to proprietary > formats difficult to migrate at a later stage. There is also > the strong tendency to move the users into a proprietary working > environment they can't leave except at very high costs (note, that > it is the usual strategy of proprietary vendors to set the update > costs just a little bit lower than the migration costs for the > customer). > > Though data are important and it is nice to collect them, > I am still convinced that we help the developing countries better if > we first help them to build up technology know-how of their own. > They will be far more efficient with the data collection later on. > > > Would it not be good if, each time an Intergraph or ESRI or Autodesk made > > one of these grand gestures regarding their software, that they also > > provided an equal level of grant-based support (both financial and > > technical) in the data collection and dissemination tasks! > > No, the data are locked into a proprietary environment one way or > another. This will be a disadvantage in the mid-term. > > > Without good quality spatial data - who needs GIS software? ;>) > > Who can collect high quality data without a GIS? -> The decision > on the techology comes first. > > I am not saying that data collection has to be stopped now to first > install Free Software. But the priorities for should be changed. > > > p.s. In any case, most developing nations have a simple solution to overly > > priced software - they simply buy one copy only! "Software piracy in > > Vietnam is estimated to be 97% for business software" > > (http://www.ealaddin.com/hasp/) and estimates from the Federation Against > > Software Theft (FAST - http://www.fast.org.uk/) for the amount of business > > applications software that is pirated in developing nations ranges "from > > 50% (typically) to over 95%"! > > This is just another argument to avoid proprietary software: > As long as you are a poor country, illegal copies are tolerated. > Once the country gets richer, you can collect as much money as you like. > Also, it is possible to blackmail a country (think of a government > using a proprietary oerpating system in all its authorities with > only a few licenses - what position do they have for economic > negotiations? China is a nice recent example, further will follow). > > There are many other arguments why developing countries > should avoid proprietary software to fill a book or a conference... From mcd7 at duke.edu Mon Feb 10 15:26:03 2003 From: mcd7 at duke.edu (Michael C Dietze) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 09:26:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Freegis-list] Re: GIS grant to help map cities worldwide In-Reply-To: <20030210110002.16356.14030.Mailman@doto.intevation.de> References: <20030210110002.16356.14030.Mailman@doto.intevation.de> Message-ID: I am relatively new to this list (been reading for a couple months and this is my first post) but I have been continually suprised by the amount of energy spent defending the _concept_ of free GIS, the current thread on ESRI's investment (charity?) in the third world being just one example. I would expect that people interested enough to join this list would be sufficiently on board with the idea that such discussion would be preaching to the choir. This is not to say that we shouldn't extol the virtues of Free (big F), free (little f), and assorted shades of public liscence GIS, but that such a reaction has lead discussion, and this discussion in particular, away from what I think would be the more productive topics. For example, Mr. Longhorn's contranst between OpenOffice and GRASS really resonated with me and points to what I find to be one of the major challenges of Free GIS, which is accessability. I, like Adrian, am and ecologist, and my university trains ~100 students a year in GIS as part of a "masters of environmental management" program which has an incredible job placement rate, including a substantial chunk into non-profit conservation organizations. They train exclusively in ESRI products. How the non-profits these students go to work for are expected to afford ARC is beyond me. Even I, in my conceptual support of Free GIS do most of my GIS work on Arc even though I do the vast majority of the rest of my research from a Linux box...I was trained in Arc and haven't had the time and energy to tackle what appears to be a very steep learning curve for GRASS. The question I have is how do we reach people like this, people like me, people like Mr. Longhorn? Telling them to hire a consultant isn't an answer that resonates with me. My vision is to see a Free GIS that is: 1) detectable - i.e. the various options and tools should be easy to find by someone looking for them. A new user shouldn't have to invest huge amounts of research time into finding what they need. While that time is justified for a long-term large-scale project, it's not for the beginner and there's no reason to make it hard for the advanced user. 2) intuitive - anyone who is familiar with using computer GUIs, and in particular anyone trained in another GIS, should be able to make a basic map without having to read the manual, without having to memorize hundreds to thousands of commands, and without writing any code. 3) cross-platform 4) migratable - no one wants a piece of software that requires them to throw out all their old work/data. That is the bare minimum to get people into using the code...there are many other things I would love to see as well (e.g. is there even anyone out there THINKING about what it would take to implement Bayesian Heirachical models in a GIS package?). It is something where anyone can do the quick and easy projects, but where the code is there for people to extend and customize applications. I strongly believe that we need the first type of user to be able to build the support base for the latter user to emerge in enough numbers. In a nutshell, I think we need to be thinking about what we need to do to COMPETE with ESRI and the like, rather than just preaching the virtues of FreeGIS and expecting that to be sufficient to draw users. Mike Dietze p.s. Adrian, I think it's more than a little strong to say that "even the best spatial ecologists don't understand ". I think many (thought definately not most) of us, at least here at Duke, have been thinking about these issues but that currently error propagation is damn near impossible in Arc, and I suspect it's the same for other GIS packages. As for the use of traditional spatial stats like variograms and krieging and the like, I think it's just part of the larger iceberg of how ecologists (and probably most researchers in general) misuse and abuse their stats, and the need to move beyond inappropriate frequentist approaches. You might want to take a look at our lab's paper in the new (Jan '03) issue of Ecology. ____________________________________________________________ mcd7 at duke.edu Program in Ecology http://www.duke.edu/~mcd7/lab Dept. of Biology lab: (919) 660-7403 Duke University home: (919) 401-6594 Durham, NC 27708 From pramsey at refractions.net Mon Feb 10 17:15:13 2003 From: pramsey at refractions.net (Paul Ramsey) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 08:15:13 -0800 Subject: [Freegis-list] Re: GIS grant to help map cities worldwide In-Reply-To: References: <20030210110002.16356.14030.Mailman@doto.intevation.de> Message-ID: <3E47D011.2000404@refractions.net> Michael, et al: There is an experimental binding for R (the free software version of SPlus) as a server-side language in PostgreSQL. As a (lapsed) statistician, I am quite excited about this. As a proponent of PostGIS, I am even more excited: there is a spatial statistics package for R called geoR. With a little typecasting work (from a resultset to a geoR spatial data frame and vice versa) it could be possible to do spatial statistics directly within PostgreSQL. OLAP with a huge twist! :) P. Michael C Dietze wrote: > As for the use of traditional spatial stats like variograms and > krieging and the like, I think it's just part of the larger iceberg > of how ecologists (and probably most researchers in general) misuse > and abuse their stats, and the need to move beyond inappropriate > frequentist approaches. You might want to take a look at our lab's > paper in the new (Jan '03) issue of Ecology. -- __ / | Paul Ramsey | Refractions Research | Email: pramsey at refractions.net | Phone: (250) 885-0632 \_ From jan at intevation.de Tue Feb 11 19:17:10 2003 From: jan at intevation.de (Jan-Oliver Wagner) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:17:10 +0100 Subject: [Freegis-list] Re: GIS grant to help map cities worldwide In-Reply-To: References: <20030208203336.GA7086@intevation.de> Message-ID: <20030211181710.GA25659@intevation.de> On Mon, Feb 10, 2003 at 06:35:07PM +0100, Jeff Thurston wrote: > When you say "You get the same gurantees as for proprietary products > (software is always just technology), but usually a far better service > (because you are not bound to a > specific vendor, the contracted service company does the best possible > service for you to keep you as a client)." I would like to point out that > many companies and individuals provide excellent service for proprietary > products - if not, they are not in business long and without a doubt they > seek to retain clients. there are companies offering service for proprietary products. But they themselves are limited to the abilities of the product. For needs beyond configuration and plugins, you (or your service provider) have to ask the producer. No choice here: there is only one. Example on migration: A producer (lets say MS) has a product (NT4) with a nice network of service providers to help you with your 1000 NT4 installations. At some point MS decides to stop support (for you and also for the service providers) so that no more security updates will follow etc. Now you are forced to migrate or to take a great risk. You do not have the opportunity to hire a service provider to patch security update for a further 15 month until you are ready to migrate to something else. The reason why there are so many companies successfully offering service for proprietary products is simply that the market competition through Free Software has not fully developed yet. > When you say "However, strong proprietary companies like Esri have the > tendency to make the users data turn to proprietary formats difficult to > migrate at a later stage. There is also the strong tendency to move the > users into a proprietary working environment they can't leave except at very > high costs" I am not so sure that is correct. What I do see is that I can > import and export in many file formats in each of ESRI, Intergraph, > Autodesk, Manifold etc products - virtually all of them support standard > ASCII files. The issue of migration problems, again, results from the > techno-centric viewpoint. An alternative approach is to determine what types > of spatial information are needed and for which purposes dependent upon a > strategic plan - then acquire software. In a research environment, I doubt > software capability is the driving force - whereas identifying the spatial > data needed as related to the hypothesis and study purpose is - the software > comes secondary. No matter how simple it sounds talking just about some format issues, migration is a major problem. Just ask some companies or organisations that did a serious migration cost estimate. You will be surprised on the outcome. Doing simple migration cost estimates is a standard job for proprietary vendors to adjust their prices on updates - unfortunately it is quite difficult to get such reports ;-). > I agree that data is the real issue, however, I applaud those corporations > who do donate products for use. If it results in only one or two people > improving real world problems then that is the goal and success. If more > people solve their problems using either proprietary or free software then > so be it. You only look at the technical problem. The developing countries will take a step backword in regard to getting independet from the industrial countries. To my honest opinion, you create more real world problems than you solve if you donate proprietary products. > I also suspect that if there is such a growing concern about > proprietary formats or other issues, that consumers should provide strong > feedback to corporations. They likely will respond and you might be > surprised. Indeed. But different than you suspect. Between 'yes, we like open standards and of course our products will follow them' and what it acually the case is a big difference. > The trend is already towards highly interoperable systems and > functionality - that will only grow. The primary issue remains data and > geo-spatial functionality that is easy to implement. I see a growth in formats that are controlled. Eg. via patents. > Perhaps you could explain where the 'free' part comes in, I do not think I > fully understand it yet. Think of free as in Freedom. -- Jan-Oliver Wagner http://intevation.de/~jan/ Intevation GmbH http://intevation.de/ FreeGIS http://freegis.org/ From jan at intevation.de Tue Feb 11 21:04:55 2003 From: jan at intevation.de (Jan-Oliver Wagner) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 21:04:55 +0100 Subject: [Freegis-list] Re: GIS grant to help map cities worldwide In-Reply-To: References: <20030210110002.16356.14030.Mailman@doto.intevation.de> Message-ID: <20030211200455.GB16056@intevation.de> On Mon, Feb 10, 2003 at 09:26:03AM -0500, Michael C Dietze wrote: > In a nutshell, I think we need to be thinking about what we need to do to > COMPETE with ESRI and the like, rather than just preaching the virtues of > FreeGIS and expecting that to be sufficient to draw users. the FreeGIS activities aim at spreading the word, collect information and offer a discussion forum. This is a lot political and PR work. Companies and spare time developers work on improving the code. It is a slow process but with visible success. UMN MapServer is a nice example where Free Software does not just compete, but already has beaten what ESRI produces. Other prominent success stories are GRASS, PostGIS and also base libraries such as shapelib/GDAL/OGR. -- Jan-Oliver Wagner http://intevation.de/~jan/ Intevation GmbH http://intevation.de/ FreeGIS http://freegis.org/ From bernhard at intevation.de Tue Feb 11 22:54:12 2003 From: bernhard at intevation.de (Bernhard Reiter) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 22:54:12 +0100 Subject: [Freegis-list] Defending the FreeGIS concept In-Reply-To: References: <20030210110002.16356.14030.Mailman@doto.intevation.de> Message-ID: <20030211215412.GX7449@intevation.de> On Mon, Feb 10, 2003 at 09:26:03AM -0500, Michael C Dietze wrote: > I am relatively new to this list (been reading for a couple months and > this is my first post) Welcome! > but I have been continually suprised by the amount > of energy spent defending the _concept_ of free GIS, the current thread on > ESRI's investment (charity?) in the third world being just one example. For the time I've made the experience that knowledge about Free Software and its philosophy is not commonly spread even with people being in the Free Software camp. Sometimes people here take the opportunity to repeat and somehow teach what we already know. For a list that continues to grow in size (574 members as I type) with new members this seems appropriate to me. We somehow try to keep the overview about the Free GIS subject with this list thus advocay is naturally also on-topic. In the particular case Jan-Oliver crossposted, he just wanted to show how the proprietary software mechanisms work and make people depend on them. It really helps the cause of this list if we do shed light on the long term implications a decision for or against Free Software has in more cases. > For example, Mr. Longhorn's contranst between OpenOffice and GRASS really > resonated with me and points to what I find to be one of the major > challenges of Free GIS, which is accessability. I, like Adrian, am and > ecologist, and my university trains ~100 students a year in GIS as part of > a "masters of environmental management" program which has an incredible > job placement rate, including a substantial chunk into non-profit > conservation organizations. They train exclusively in ESRI products. > How the non-profits these students go to work for are expected to afford > ARC is beyond me. Even I, in my conceptual support of Free GIS do most of > my GIS work on Arc even though I do the vast majority of the rest of my > research from a Linux box...I was trained in Arc and haven't had the time > and energy to tackle what appears to be a very steep learning curve for > GRASS. The question I have is how do we reach people like this, people > like me, people like Mr. Longhorn? Telling them to hire a consultant > isn't an answer that resonates with me. I see the point, but to me this also demonstrates why we have to think about the concept of Free Software. Mr. Longhorn decided by what seem to be practical value. His freedom regarding to this software was not majorly important for his decision. (This by the way is a significant to tell people from the Free Software movement and Open Source movement apart.) It might be that the current Free Software available might not be the most practical today. If we value the freedom and community there is an incentive to help improving it until it serves our needs. You could try to help us with GRASS or other Free GIS packages. Actually I believe that GRASS continiously improved over the last two years. It has a tcl/tk GUI which is not brilliant, but provides a good start beyond the command line and for starting users. GRASS 5.0 was a milestone release. The first major release not based on work of the original team from the US military. [Disclosure: I'm involved in GRASS' development.] We had two interns here at Intevation in the last two years who we taught GRASS and who were able to do complex GIS tasks. > 1) detectable - i.e. the various options and tools should be easy to find > by someone looking for them. A new user shouldn't have to invest huge > amounts of research time into finding what they need. While that time is > justified for a long-term large-scale project, it's not for the beginner > and there's no reason to make it hard for the advanced user. > > 2) intuitive - anyone who is familiar with using computer GUIs, and in > particular anyone trained in another GIS, should be able to make a basic > map without having to read the manual, without having to memorize hundreds > to thousands of commands, and without writing any code. > > 3) cross-platform > > 4) migratable - no one wants a piece of software that requires them to > throw out all their old work/data. To quite some extend GRASS already fits this criterias. There is one bigger learning step at the beginning of using GRASS: How to make a location. Also GRASS is a real GIS, not a cartography tool. It is not about interactive map making, but about analysis. All analysis tool I saw were complex. So GRASS is not the answer of all GIS needs. Still it is a commonly cited example, because it is very powerful and some users believe it is the most powerful tool for their tasks. As for making maps sketch can be a bare-bones tool, if you have the vector data available allready. iGmt also is useful though with a different twist. For general interactive viewing many smaller projects exist, to name a few: OpenMap, OSSIM, Thuban, QGIS, OpenEV Some of them are already advanced and all of them wait to really get discovered by more (GIS) developers and users. > In a nutshell, I think we need to be thinking about what we need to do to > COMPETE with ESRI and the like, rather than just preaching the virtues of > FreeGIS and expecting that to be sufficient to draw users. There are many more specialised lists for the various projects. So the more technical discussions usually are moved there. If you want to help, get a student to try solving GIS problems with Free Software. Actually try one, give feedback and in this way help to improve it. Bernhard -- Professional Service around Free Software (intevation.net) If freegis is useful for you, consider paying for the service: http://freegis.org/about-paying.en.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.intevation.de/pipermail/freegis-list/attachments/20030211/4d726439/attachment.bin From acuster at nature.berkeley.edu Wed Feb 12 01:39:43 2003 From: acuster at nature.berkeley.edu (Adrian Custer) Date: 11 Feb 2003 16:39:43 -0800 Subject: [Freegis-list] Re: GIS grant to help map cities worldwide In-Reply-To: References: <20030210110002.16356.14030.Mailman@doto.intevation.de> Message-ID: <1045010383.2193.151.camel@tsetse.lab-net> Mr. Dietze, On Mon, 2003-02-10 at 06:26, Michael C Dietze wrote: > I have been continually suprised by the amount > of energy spent defending the _concept_ of free GIS, This list has done many things, from informing people about new programs to advocacy for political action. In this case it seemed to be a member of the CGIAR wondering why he should struggle with free geographic software rather than buy something off the shelf that seems to do what he wants to do. This is a valid question. Why struggle when something easy can be purchased? The only reason would be if *Free* gives you something useful that non-free does not. This is how the conversation slips from discussion into advocacy. The CGIAR, by the way, is a fairly large group. It will be involved in geographic research extensively over the next few decades. Therefore one of the question the CGIAR faces is how to leverage the substantial upcoming investments of money, time and effort which they will make to obtain the best systems to gather, analyze and present geographic information. The CGIAR is also linked with other very large inter-governmental organizations including the UN (FA0,UNEP) so that some of the costs and benefits might possibly be widely shared which changes the issue when compared to NGOs. The Brazilian government, for instance, developed its own software package since it could defray the costs across all the agencies which would share the system. The CGIAR is going to spend a lot of money on hardware, software and salaries to support their GIS activities. Since it's ultimately our money they are spending, we may also ask ourselves what we want out of that money. I'm developing a separate response that is going to attempt to lay out the decisions facing organizations wishing to implement geographic capabilities and may be of interest to you. It will take a few days of work though. > Telling them to hire a consultant isn't an answer that resonates with me. Honestly, here it seems that you might start to think differently about what a GIS really is and how organizations can best develop such a thing. You've probably heard and developed definitions of Geographic Information \emph{Systems}. All the definitions developed recently try explicitly to de-emphasize the software component. G.I.Systems are really a series of methods to obtain, manipulate and present geographic data, methods which are carried out by people with a high degree of training. The people involved in the system are the most critical, in terms of costs, in terms of training, in terms of probability of success and in terms of perpetuation of the system within an organization. When viewed in terms of people, the use of consultants for all GIS tasks, quite apart from the *freedom* of the software used, starts to make more sense. Organizations of all kinds contract out lots of technical work, like chemical analyses of soil samples. GIS seems similar to me. Find really qualified people and they can probably do your project cheaper, quicker and with much more sophistication than you could do your project in house. Why does the idea of buying software and hiring a newly trained student seem more reasonable than farming out the work to people who do nothing else for a living? Do we have a good sense that one is cheaper than the other? Do we know that one is more effective? GIS requires expertise, requires finding data, checking it, manipulating it, checking it, combining it.... This is the standard expertise of people who have been trained in GIS. Others have a much deeper understanding of GIS and software code and robustness issues and analytic issues. The difference between my muddling through an analysis and a team of real experts performing the same analysis is significant. > My vision is to see a Free GIS that is: Your vision is widely shared. However, it will take several years to become a reality. What is possible today, however, is for a group of programmers to develop an effective solution for a particular organization using all free software. In a few years, such a solution will be available for download or with other distributions of free software such as the operating system distributions. > p.s. Adrian, I think it's more than a little strong to say that "even the > best spatial ecologists don't understand ". Fine, but I disagree with you. Not one ecologist on campus doing geographic ecological research has heard of the "Modifiable Areal Unit Problem" and I see repeated presentations of garbage produced by very good people who simply have not grasped the difficulty of the spatial dimension. Remember that the analysis of dynamics, that is adding the temporal dimension to ecological analysis, only took off post-war. We don't yet really understand how to deal with dynamic analysis in ecology and that involves only a single, uni-directional dimension. Spatial analysis involves three (at non-planck scales) with actions possible in any direction. To think that we will understand space and how to analyze organisms in space without a real struggle seems improbable. There are many ecologists with good training doing GIS but honestly the field is still really young and a whole lot is not understood. I finally found last month a book with the title "Geographic Information Analysis" which seemed to be the first book providing a real overview of the current techniques in spatial analysis. The book doesn't, on a brief perusal, seem to do what I've been struggling with which is to assess why we have these particular techniques and how do they fit in the realm of all possible techniques of spatial analysis. I've spend four or five years thinking about what spatial analysis really is and spent last spring trying to bring my thoughts together but have not yet gotten a real grip on how to think about it, let alone how to carry it out. I personally suspect that our mathematical understanding is not yet deep enough to actually undertake true spatial analysis. The hallmark of scientific measurement and analysis is the coherency, repeatability, comparability and robustness of reported results. Current spatial analysis in simply not there yet. Landscape ecology is all about case studies and we have little ability to compare one analysis to another. We have a vast area to cover before we can actually say simple things about the spatiality of organisms. So yes, my statement is strong but it comes from a long period of reflection and a real desire to change the current state of affairs. Right now we simply do not understand how little we understand. > You might want to take a look at our lab's paper in the new > (Jan '03) issue of Ecology. Sure, I'll wander over to the library and take a look. And please do not take my statements as a reproach of current efforts or some kind of assumption that everyone is doing useless work. We are all struggling with these issues and doing the best we can. There have been some wonderful and important ideas developed over the past two decades but these remain hints, suggestions of the importance of certain factors, illustrations of the great difficulties ahead. cheers, adrian From Matt.Wilkie at gov.yk.ca Wed Feb 12 18:28:11 2003 From: Matt.Wilkie at gov.yk.ca (Matt.Wilkie) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:28:11 -0800 Subject: [Freegis-list] Re: GIS grant to help map cities worldwide Message-ID: <6DD7370C9452D31192A10008C75D075316003B6E@RAPTOR> Greetings Everybody, I just wanted to drop a line saying how much I appreciate the well thought out and reasoned discussion of the last few days on why Free/Libre GIS is important. There is a lot of good material here. regards, -- Matt Wilkie -------------------------------------------- Geographic Information, Information Management and Technology, Yukon Department of Environment 91780 Alaska Hwy * Whitehorse, Yukon * Y1A 5X7 867-667-8133 Tel * 867-393-7003 Fax -------------------------------------------- From geo_pradeep at yahoo.com Wed Feb 12 20:34:38 2003 From: geo_pradeep at yahoo.com (pradeep kumar) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:34:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Freegis-list] Defending the FreeGIS concept In-Reply-To: <20030211215412.GX7449@intevation.de> Message-ID: <20030212193438.30858.qmail@web14710.mail.yahoo.com> Hi All, The arguments for or against free/proprietary software and GIS seems to really reach no end; this is particularly so because people who would otherwise make a hard analysis of the facts and figures seem to give up doing that when it comes to questions of free software. Proprietary software is alright, provided one is comfortable with the idea of being fenced-in. The steep learning curves of free software is really a myth! Any intelligent person can come to grips with free software and when it comes to GIS, GRASS despite appearing formidable is infact very well stuctured and logical. At least for me, who had never used a GIS till a year back, GRASS presented the opportunity to see the innards of a GIS. After struggling with Geomedia it was a whiff of fresh air to come across GRASS. What I believe is most of the complaints about the free software and GRASS in general are mostly because most users are reluctant to put in any effort other than clicking a few buttons. And most users need not in fact struggle with free software when all they need is to get the work done with minimal effort, and for which ready made solutions exist. The concept of freedom somehow got entangled with the concept of complexity. Freedom is complex, indeed ... but once its had then there is no going back. The lessening of the complexity of Free Software lies with the user and not with any particular person. So each person is infact a developer ... and its to be appreciated that some really take it upon themselves to develop free software, rather than just use it. Any scientist doing work on Spatial Analyses and data (so that covers almost the entire field of science) cannot afford to give GRASS the go-by. The powerful tools it has on its own, and also combined with other software like R and the robustness of Linux etc, gives it such scientific rigour and authenticity and conviction that it ought to be the defacto GIS/Statistical Anaylses/Modelling tool of every scientist. If its not happening, then its not something about steep learning curves, but rather about unwillingness to deal with the unknown (thats a real contradiction, since any scientific endeavour seeks out the unknown or the less explained). The question of defending free GIS is rather a tricky one... the users of free GIS happily carry on using it, and most were not induced into using it by any advocacy but by pragmatic needs ("freedom" may also have worked!); and when a need arises the most difficult task gets tackled with gusto. All said and done, GRASS could really do with a larger user base, and it is upto each user to demonstrate its capabilities. My colleagues in the Fachh. Stuttgart, all of whom are ESRI-Intergraph users, have a keen interest in GRASS after I installed and started using it, and infact, have definite plans to start working on it. There have been no complaints about steep learning curves but rather appreciation of its power. But the fact remains that none of them would have given GRASS a second glance unless there was somebody in their midst actually using it!! Cheers Pradeep Kumar Dept Geomatics, Computer Science and Mathematics Fachh. Stuttgart Stuttgart, Germany anprs110 at mars.rz.fht-stuttgart.de __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day http://shopping.yahoo.com From pramsey at refractions.net Wed Feb 12 20:47:36 2003 From: pramsey at refractions.net (Paul Ramsey) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:47:36 -0800 Subject: [Freegis-list] Defending the FreeGIS concept In-Reply-To: <20030212193438.30858.qmail@web14710.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030212193438.30858.qmail@web14710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E4AA4D8.1020105@refractions.net> pradeep kumar wrote: > But the fact remains that none of them would have > given GRASS a second glance unless there was somebody > in their midst actually using it!! Which brings the whole discussion back around to the old truism: "bad software with good marketing trumps good software with bad marketing". Unfortunately, the problem does easily reduce to 'everyone go out and tell a friend'. Word of mouth only reaches so far. Proprietary software has the luxury of using large profit margins on software sales (each sale has almost no manufacturing cost) to fund proportionally massive marketing efforts which turn into more sales, etc etc etc. If I sell my product for $100K a throw, I can afford to field a team of face-to-face sales people, and the only cost I have to charge against my $100K is the sales effort involved in closing the deal. The more I think about the financial dynamics of software sales and marketing, the more daunting the hill of acceptance for OSS seems to me. -- __ / | Paul Ramsey | Refractions Research | Email: pramsey at refractions.net | Phone: (250) 885-0632 \_ From steve at sierraclubbc.org Thu Feb 13 01:10:49 2003 From: steve at sierraclubbc.org (Steve Young) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 16:10:49 -0800 Subject: [Freegis-list] Dispersion Modeling Message-ID: Hi, We're interesting in dispersion modelling of point sources. Specifically we want to get an idea of where mercury from a proposed coal-fired power station would deposit. We need combination of software and expertise. Can anyone help? Thanks, Steve ______________________ Steve Young GIS Technician Sierra Club of Canada, BC Chapter 576 Johnson St Victoria BC V8W 1M3 T 250 386 5255 F 250 386 4453 E steve at sierraclubbc.org www.sierraclub.ca/bc From mymail at harmakhis.org Thu Feb 13 13:00:28 2003 From: mymail at harmakhis.org (G. Orme) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:00:28 +1000 Subject: [Freegis-list] mapping coordinates. Message-ID: <000f01c2d357$81815ef0$5d3731d2@office> Hi, I need to urgently map some coordinates onto a map. The coordinates are here: http://www.martianspiders.com/locations.htm The map is the top right hand one here: http://www.martianspiders.com/topo_sl.gif I also need it as a separate image so I can overlay it on other maps with the same projection. Is there a simple way I can do this without having to learn how to run a lot of software. I know nothing at all about working something like this. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.intevation.de/pipermail/freegis-list/attachments/20030213/15b380f4/attachment.html From bernhard at intevation.de Thu Feb 13 13:23:08 2003 From: bernhard at intevation.de (Bernhard Reiter) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:23:08 +0100 Subject: [Freegis-list] mapping coordinates. In-Reply-To: <000f01c2d357$81815ef0$5d3731d2@office> References: <000f01c2d357$81815ef0$5d3731d2@office> Message-ID: <20030213122308.GE1070@intevation.de> To my suprise the maps look like they have been created with gmt. I might have recommended gmt anyway. :) If they are created by gmt, find out who did it. Get the exact parameters and the data and your job should be fairly easy. The good documentation and tutorials of GMT will guide you through it. http://gmt.soest.hawaii.edu/ Bernhard ps.: Please refrain from posting in HTML to this list. On Thu, Feb 13, 2003 at 10:00:28PM +1000, G. Orme wrote: > > I need to urgently map some coordinates onto a map. The > coordinates are here: > > > [1]http://www.martianspiders.com/locations.htm > > > The map is the top right hand one here: > > > [2]http://www.martianspiders.com/topo_sl.gif > > > I also need it as a separate image so I can overlay it on other maps > with the same projection. Is there a simple way I can do this without > having to learn how to run a lot of software. I know nothing at all > about working something like this. -- Professional Service around Free Software (intevation.net) If freegis is useful for you, consider paying for the service: http://freegis.org/about-paying.en.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.intevation.de/pipermail/freegis-list/attachments/20030213/e34651db/attachment.bin From bernhard at intevation.de Thu Feb 13 13:26:42 2003 From: bernhard at intevation.de (Bernhard Reiter) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:26:42 +0100 Subject: [Freegis-list] Defending the FreeGIS concept In-Reply-To: <20030212193438.30858.qmail@web14710.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030211215412.GX7449@intevation.de> <20030212193438.30858.qmail@web14710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030213122642.GF1070@intevation.de> On Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 11:34:38AM -0800, pradeep kumar wrote: > My colleagues in the Fachh. Stuttgart, > all of whom are ESRI-Intergraph users, have a keen > interest in GRASS after I installed and started using > it, and infact, have definite plans to start working > on it. There have been no complaints about steep > learning curves but rather appreciation of its power. > > But the fact remains that none of them would have > given GRASS a second glance unless there was somebody > in their midst actually using it!! If you further want to promote GRASS and Free Software GIS, there is a German non-profit organisation www.grass-verein.de which tries to help organising this and bringing people together. They would be interesting in your experiences in Stuttgart. Bernhard -- Professional Service around Free Software (intevation.net) If freegis is useful for you, consider paying for the service: http://freegis.org/about-paying.en.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.intevation.de/pipermail/freegis-list/attachments/20030213/0823f751/attachment.bin From giorgio.cassina at pentex.it Thu Feb 13 13:40:15 2003 From: giorgio.cassina at pentex.it (Giorgio Cassina) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 13:40:15 +0100 Subject: [Freegis-list] Polynomial Transformation Message-ID: <99104681000.20030213134015@pentex.it> Hi all, anyone knows about a place on the web where I can find some information and algorithm examples on "Polynomial Transformations", the tecnique used to warp vectorial data to another vector data set based on some control points couples ? Thanks in advance -- Ing. Cassina Giorgio PENTEX srl P.zza Chioratti, 7 10086 - Rivarolo C.se (TO) Tel. +39-0124-425316 Fax. +39-0124-420406 mailto:giorgio.cassina at pentex.it From holgerzebner at gmx.de Wed Feb 12 20:57:25 2003 From: holgerzebner at gmx.de (Holger Zebner) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 20:57:25 +0100 Subject: [Freegis-list] Re: GIS grant to help map cities worldwide In-Reply-To: <1045010383.2193.151.camel@tsetse.lab-net> References: <20030210110002.16356.14030.Mailman@doto.intevation.de> Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20030212202546.038f0c68@pop.gmx.net> Hello list, I read the discussion from which these postings derrived with a lot of interest. The use of free or proprietary technology is a good question for both - developing and industrialized coutries. But when we recommend the dev. coutries to use free software we should remember that support and updates needed come from the net. But can the access the net all the time or can they afford this? In my opinion, the GUI needs to be developped a lot more. Consider that you may be working with people who have used the computer just for some years; so the thing should be, as early mentioned, intuative in it's use. Some word on the advocacy/PR matter: >If you want to help, get a student to try solving GIS problems >with Free Software. Actually try one, give feedback and in this >way help to improve it. I am a student in Geography. In our department we get taught all GIS knowledge on ESRI (ArcView, ArcMap). there're like telling us that it is the only system existing which is quite true when one takes a look at the spreading of ESRI. The whole university uses it even though it has known problems: the code and programming code (Avenue) is proprietary, it crashes often and isn't very comfortable to use. But still they don't think of something different than buying the latest licence. Don't they see that they have the power of a new generation sitting in their halls. Only universities can afford to deploy a lot of specialist to develop the next generation free GIS tools. They have all the different departments and subjects that are needed to bring out something more than a cartographic tool. I'd like start exploring the free GIS software world but it isn't useful at the moment since I will have to present the results in Arc. I once istalled GRASS 5.0 but simlpy capitulated. It seemed to be suitable for specialists performing a raster image research. I think it is not really good just some small database-vector-image work like joining or intersecting imgaes... Greetings Holger OS: SuSu 8.1 TeX: teTeX Lyx : Version 1.2.1 Adobe Acrobat 5 From bernhard at intevation.de Thu Feb 13 21:54:45 2003 From: bernhard at intevation.de (Bernhard Reiter) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 21:54:45 +0100 Subject: [Freegis-list] Re: GIS grant to help map cities worldwide In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20030212202546.038f0c68@pop.gmx.net> References: <20030210110002.16356.14030.Mailman@doto.intevation.de> <5.1.1.5.2.20030212202546.038f0c68@pop.gmx.net> Message-ID: <20030213205445.GM2360@intevation.de> On Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 08:57:25PM +0100, Holger Zebner wrote: > But when we recommend the dev. coutries to use free software we should > remember that support and updates needed come from the net. But can the > access the net all the time or can they afford this? In my opinion, the GUI > needs to be developped a lot more. Consider that you may be working with > people who have used the computer just for some years; so the thing should > be, as early mentioned, intuative in it's use. About access to Free Software: The freedom to copy software really helps in the development countries. Bringing a CD or something else down there is not that big of the problem. Many universities do have reasonable internet access, too. To the GUI remark: Some command line interface are easier to learn and have lower computing power requirements, both is also an advantage in this regard. > I am a student in Geography. In our department we get taught all GIS > knowledge on ESRI (ArcView, ArcMap). there're like telling us that it is > the only system existing which is quite true when one takes a look at the > spreading of ESRI. The whole university uses it even though it has known > problems: the code and programming code (Avenue) is proprietary, it crashes > often and isn't very comfortable to use. But still they don't think of > something different than buying the latest licence. Don't they see that > they have the power of a new generation sitting in their halls. Ask them unfortable questions. Ask the student representatives. Organise presentations of alternative software with fellow students. It will help to grow your all knowledge about GIS thus it adds to your education. > I'd like start exploring the free GIS software world but it isn't useful at > the moment since I will have to present the results in Arc. Some results done with Free Software can be presented with proprietary software. I think it is majorly sad that the university promotes one special vendor. In some of my GIS courses in 1999 I demanded that I wanted to use a different software and was allowed doing so. > I once istalled GRASS 5.0 but simlpy capitulated. It seemed to be suitable > for specialists performing a raster image research. I think it is not > really good just some small database-vector-image work like joining or > intersecting imgaes... Have you had a look in the FreeGIS tutorial? It is in Germany done by a Heiko Kehlenbrink a student. http://www.freegis.org/freegis_tutorial/index.en.html We hope to improve that so that students can lean to use Free GIS. Bernhard -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.intevation.de/pipermail/freegis-list/attachments/20030213/d2b0adb2/attachment.bin From Dallas.Masters at colorado.edu Thu Feb 13 23:01:59 2003 From: Dallas.Masters at colorado.edu (Dallas Masters) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 15:01:59 -0700 (MST) Subject: [Freegis-list] batch read/convert Mr. Sid format Message-ID: I have a set of Mr. Sid files that I would like to convert to something more useful. I don't think GDAL or any GRASS routine will read Mr. Sid, so I'm left with LizardTech's free viewer (I'm using Linux, so Infranview isn't an option). The free viewer is an interactive process, and I don't want to click my way through the long list of Mr. Sid files. Does anyone know of a better reader/converter for Mr. Sid files or a Open Source code module that describes its format? Thanks. Dallas ------------------------------------------ Dallas Masters Colorado Center for Astrodynamics Research University of Colorado, Boulder (303) 492-4075 http://ccar.colorado.edu ------------------------------------------ From jan at intevation.de Fri Feb 14 17:32:40 2003 From: jan at intevation.de (Jan-Oliver Wagner) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:32:40 +0100 Subject: [Freegis-list] Dispersion Modeling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030214163240.GA31447@intevation.de> On Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 04:10:49PM -0800, Steve Young wrote: > We're interesting in dispersion modelling of point sources. Specifically we > want to get an idea of where mercury from a proposed coal-fired power > station would deposit. > > We need combination of software and expertise. Can anyone help? you should first evaluate whether you need a geo-referenced system. Generic models usually do no need this (e.g. like for the german TA Luft, Technical Guidance Air). If you need a geo-referenced approach, GRASS might be a good idea. There it is possible to implement simulation modules - and IIRC some soil models are even available. Jan -- Jan-Oliver Wagner http://intevation.de/~jan/ Intevation GmbH http://intevation.de/ FreeGIS http://freegis.org/ From jan at intevation.de Fri Feb 14 17:33:58 2003 From: jan at intevation.de (Jan-Oliver Wagner) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:33:58 +0100 Subject: [Freegis-list] batch read/convert Mr. Sid format In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030214163358.GB31447@intevation.de> On Thu, Feb 13, 2003 at 03:01:59PM -0700, Dallas Masters wrote: > I have a set of Mr. Sid files that I would like to convert to something > more useful. I don't think GDAL or any GRASS routine will read Mr. Sid, > so I'm left with LizardTech's free viewer (I'm using Linux, so > Infranview isn't an option). The free viewer is an interactive process, > and I don't want to click my way through the long list of Mr. Sid files. > Does anyone know of a better reader/converter for Mr. Sid files or a > Open Source code module that describes its format? Thanks. unfortunately, MrSid is a proprietary format. I am not aware of any Free Software implementation. There was a thread on this problem here on this list a couple of months ago. Jan -- Jan-Oliver Wagner http://intevation.de/~jan/ Intevation GmbH http://intevation.de/ FreeGIS http://freegis.org/ From jan at intevation.de Fri Feb 14 17:40:11 2003 From: jan at intevation.de (Jan-Oliver Wagner) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 17:40:11 +0100 Subject: [Freegis-list] Query : Problem with .shp point coordinates In-Reply-To: <20030204101410.19228.qmail@webmail16.rediffmail.com> References: <20030204101410.19228.qmail@webmail16.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <20030214164011.GD31447@intevation.de> On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 10:14:10AM -0000, Shailesh Ganatra wrote: > I'm working in GIS field, and trying to read format of .shp file > programmatically. I know the format of .shp file and I can read > header and all structures and infromation relating to them. > > But the problem is that I got very large values for the > coordinates. if I understand it correctly, you implemented a shapefile reader yourself. There are already various shapefile libraries available as Free Software. The most famous one is shapelib by Frank Wamerdam, but there are solutions in Java as well. If you don't want to use one of those implementations, you could at least use them to learn how they avoid/solve the problems you faced. Jan -- Jan-Oliver Wagner http://intevation.de/~jan/ Intevation GmbH http://intevation.de/ FreeGIS http://freegis.org/ From Dallas.Masters at colorado.edu Fri Feb 14 23:11:56 2003 From: Dallas.Masters at colorado.edu (Dallas Masters) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:11:56 -0700 (MST) Subject: [Freegis-list] batch read/convert Mr. Sid format In-Reply-To: <20030214163358.GB31447@intevation.de> Message-ID: I received help from the GisTrans-L list pointing me to the DOS executable "mrsiddecode.exe" on the Lizardtech site. I successfully ran it under "wine" on Linux to translate Mr. Sid files to other formats. It's extremely slow, but perhaps it would run faster under dosemu. Regarding the format, does anyone know how infranview was able to write a viewer for this format? Perhaps Lizardtech does give out the details of the format if you want to write support for Mr. Sid in GRASS or GDAL. Dallas On Fri, 14 Feb 2003, Jan-Oliver Wagner wrote: > On Thu, Feb 13, 2003 at 03:01:59PM -0700, Dallas Masters wrote: > > I have a set of Mr. Sid files that I would like to convert to something > > more useful. I don't think GDAL or any GRASS routine will read Mr. Sid, > > so I'm left with LizardTech's free viewer (I'm using Linux, so > > Infranview isn't an option). The free viewer is an interactive process, > > and I don't want to click my way through the long list of Mr. Sid files. > > Does anyone know of a better reader/converter for Mr. Sid files or a > > Open Source code module that describes its format? Thanks. > > unfortunately, MrSid is a proprietary format. > I am not aware of any Free Software implementation. > > There was a thread on this problem here on this list > a couple of months ago. > > Jan > > -- > Jan-Oliver Wagner http://intevation.de/~jan/ > > Intevation GmbH http://intevation.de/ > FreeGIS http://freegis.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > Freegis-list mailing list > Freegis-list at intevation.de > https://intevation.de/mailman/listinfo/freegis-list > Dallas ------------------------------------------ Dallas Masters Colorado Center for Astrodynamics Research University of Colorado, Boulder (303) 492-4075 http://ccar.colorado.edu ------------------------------------------ From sonny at ionicenterprise.com Fri Feb 14 23:44:43 2003 From: sonny at ionicenterprise.com (sonny) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:44:43 -0600 Subject: GISTrans: Re: [Freegis-list] batch read/convert Mr. Sid format In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001601c2d47a$ab4bded0$2864a8c0@hercule> Lizardtech used to provide an SDK for download, but that does not seem to be the case now. sonny parafina -----Original Message----- From: owner-gistrans-l at Avenza.com [mailto:owner-gistrans-l at Avenza.com]On Behalf Of Dallas Masters Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 4:12 PM To: freegis-list at intevation.de Cc: GISTRANS-L at Avenza.com Subject: GISTrans: Re: [Freegis-list] batch read/convert Mr. Sid format I received help from the GisTrans-L list pointing me to the DOS executable "mrsiddecode.exe" on the Lizardtech site. I successfully ran it under "wine" on Linux to translate Mr. Sid files to other formats. It's extremely slow, but perhaps it would run faster under dosemu. Regarding the format, does anyone know how infranview was able to write a viewer for this format? Perhaps Lizardtech does give out the details of the format if you want to write support for Mr. Sid in GRASS or GDAL. Dallas On Fri, 14 Feb 2003, Jan-Oliver Wagner wrote: > On Thu, Feb 13, 2003 at 03:01:59PM -0700, Dallas Masters wrote: > > I have a set of Mr. Sid files that I would like to convert to something > > more useful. I don't think GDAL or any GRASS routine will read Mr. Sid, > > so I'm left with LizardTech's free viewer (I'm using Linux, so > > Infranview isn't an option). The free viewer is an interactive process, > > and I don't want to click my way through the long list of Mr. Sid files. > > Does anyone know of a better reader/converter for Mr. Sid files or a > > Open Source code module that describes its format? Thanks. > > unfortunately, MrSid is a proprietary format. > I am not aware of any Free Software implementation. > > There was a thread on this problem here on this list > a couple of months ago. > > Jan > > -- > Jan-Oliver Wagner http://intevation.de/~jan/ > > Intevation GmbH http://intevation.de/ > FreeGIS http://freegis.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > Freegis-list mailing list > Freegis-list at intevation.de > https://intevation.de/mailman/listinfo/freegis-list > Dallas ------------------------------------------ Dallas Masters Colorado Center for Astrodynamics Research University of Colorado, Boulder (303) 492-4075 http://ccar.colorado.edu ------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this list, send e-mail to majordomo at avenza.com and put "unsubscribe gistrans-l" in the message body. From jan at intevation.de Sat Feb 15 17:25:39 2003 From: jan at intevation.de (Jan-Oliver Wagner) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 17:25:39 +0100 Subject: GISTrans: Re: [Freegis-list] batch read/convert Mr. Sid format In-Reply-To: <001601c2d47a$ab4bded0$2864a8c0@hercule> References: <001601c2d47a$ab4bded0$2864a8c0@hercule> Message-ID: <20030215162539.GA27039@intevation.de> On Fri, Feb 14, 2003 at 04:44:43PM -0600, sonny wrote: > Lizardtech used to provide an SDK for download, but that does not seem to be > the case now. and it is no Free Software. -- Jan-Oliver Wagner http://intevation.de/~jan/ Intevation GmbH http://intevation.de/ FreeGIS http://freegis.org/ From dietrick at bbn.com Sun Feb 16 03:27:09 2003 From: dietrick at bbn.com (Don Dietrick) Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 21:27:09 -0500 Subject: [Freegis-list] Re: Query : Problem with .shp point coordinates In-Reply-To: <20030215110002.17523.44445.Mailman@doto.intevation.de> Message-ID: <261C64E0-4156-11D7-8645-000393033D5C@bbn.com> > On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 10:14:10AM -0000, Shailesh Ganatra wrote: >> I'm working in GIS field, and trying to read format of .shp file >> programmatically. I know the format of .shp file and I can read >> header and all structures and infromation relating to them. >> >> But the problem is that I got very large values for the >> coordinates. > > if I understand it correctly, you implemented a shapefile > reader yourself. > > There are already various shapefile libraries available > as Free Software. The most famous one is shapelib > by Frank Wamerdam, but there are solutions in Java as well. > > If you don't want to use one of those implementations, > you could at least use them to learn how they avoid/solve > the problems you faced. > Also, the shape file may contain geometry represented in projected coordinates, and not in decimal degree lat/lon values. - Don =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Don Dietrick, dietrick at bbn.com BBN Technologies, Cambridge, MA =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From neteler at itc.it Mon Feb 17 10:53:37 2003 From: neteler at itc.it (Markus Neteler) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 10:53:37 +0100 Subject: [Freegis-list] Polynomial Transformation In-Reply-To: <99104681000.20030213134015@pentex.it>; from giorgio.cassina@pentex.it on Thu, Feb 13, 2003 at 01:40:15PM +0100 References: <99104681000.20030213134015@pentex.it> Message-ID: <20030217105337.E25645@itc.it> On Thu, Feb 13, 2003 at 01:40:15PM +0100, Giorgio Cassina wrote: > Hi all, > anyone knows about a place on the web where I can find some > information and algorithm examples on "Polynomial Transformations", the > tecnique used to warp vectorial data to another vector data set based on > some control points couples ? This type of transformation is used in - GDAL: gdalwarp http://www.remotesensing.org/gdal/ - GRASS 5.0.x: i.rectify http://grass.itc.it Here it is used for raster data. There is also - GRASS 5.0.x/5.1.0: v.transform which does transformations on vector data. As all is Free Software, you are able to study the (documented) algorithms. Cheers Markus Neteler From blazek at itc.it Mon Feb 17 16:51:14 2003 From: blazek at itc.it (Radim Blazek) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 16:51:14 +0100 Subject: [Freegis-list] WiFi/GSM positioning Message-ID: <03021716511401.28353@janacek> Hi all, I am searching for some OPEN projects for positioning based on GSM or WiFi networks. I am interested in: - software - existing databases (of measurements) - running services - open standards Everything I have found so far is proprietary. Does anybody know about something? Radim From bernhard at intevation.de Mon Feb 17 17:18:23 2003 From: bernhard at intevation.de (Bernhard Reiter) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 17:18:23 +0100 Subject: [Freegis-list] WiFi/GSM positioning In-Reply-To: <03021716511401.28353@janacek> References: <03021716511401.28353@janacek> Message-ID: <20030217161823.GJ1668@intevation.de> On Mon, Feb 17, 2003 at 04:51:14PM +0100, Radim Blazek wrote: > I am searching for some OPEN projects for positioning based on > GSM or WiFi networks. I am interested in: > - software > - existing databases (of measurements) > - running services > - open standards > Everything I have found so far is proprietary. > Does anybody know about something? Inofficially I can point you to hoko.intevation.de . In the CVS is code for the Ericsson Mobile Positioning Protocol. geoserver / geoserver / src / GeoServer / mpp30.py geoserver / geoserver / src / GeoServer / mpp11.py The protocol documentation was available from Ericsson. Maybe somewhere around from http://www.ericsson.com/mobilityworld/sub/open/technologies/mobile_positioning/index.html?PU=mobile_positioning Note the SDK offered there is proprietary. -- Professional Service around Free Software (intevation.net) If freegis is useful for you, consider paying for the service: http://freegis.org/about-paying.en.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.intevation.de/pipermail/freegis-list/attachments/20030217/9cc30deb/attachment.bin From listmail at karmanaut.com Mon Feb 24 04:16:22 2003 From: listmail at karmanaut.com (Viveka) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 14:16:22 +1100 Subject: [Freegis-list] New Free Software project - 3map Message-ID: Good hello, Chris Thorne, myself and a few others have begun a small project that may be of interest to the FreeGIS community. It's partly funded by our local telco, Telstra. We are building a Free Software platform for representing the Earth in 3D online. Anyone will be able to build applications, add content as well as enhance the platform in the open source spirit. Just a tiny project really but we still encourage interested contributors - I am sure there is something in this for everyone :) Some points of note: 1. we're Free Software/Open Source (GPL) 2. we'll be building on open standards like GeoVRML and X3D 3. we're aiming for a broad user base, and will be expending considerable effort on usability 4. we're building an immersive realtime 3D client 5. we'll provide a way for end-users to publish directly to the geospatial database from within the VR environment 6. everything will be tagged with structured metadata 7. end-users will be able to dynamically filter their worldview using dynamic queries. The foundation stone is Chris Thorne's Rez project, for multiresolution terrain handling. Source and executables for Rez are available, and other project materials will be published as we go as well. We're actively looking for collaborators, and there's plenty of room for both applications of and extensions to 3map, so let us know if you're interested. more at: http://www.ping.com.au/3map Regards, V. -- Viveka Weiley, Karmanaut. { http://www.karmanaut.com | http://www.planet-earth.org http://www.MacWeb3D.org | http://sydney.siggraph.org.au } Hypermedia, virtual worlds, human interface, truth, beauty. From jan at intevation.de Mon Feb 24 18:14:06 2003 From: jan at intevation.de (Jan-Oliver Wagner) Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 18:14:06 +0100 Subject: [Freegis-list] New Free Software project - 3map In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030224171406.GA31667@intevation.de> On Mon, Feb 24, 2003 at 02:16:22PM +1100, Viveka wrote: > Chris Thorne, myself and a few others have begun a small project that > may be of interest to the FreeGIS community. It's partly funded by > our local telco, Telstra. We are building a Free Software platform > for representing the Earth in 3D online. Anyone will be able to build > applications, add content as well as enhance the platform in the open > source spirit. Just a tiny project really but we still encourage > interested contributors - I am sure there is something in this for > everyone :) thanks for letting us know. I've added rez, your first component, to FreeGIS.org. Jan -- Jan-Oliver Wagner http://intevation.de/~jan/ Intevation GmbH http://intevation.de/ FreeGIS http://freegis.org/